Tanya Rao from Kaveri Coffee Works

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Welcome to the show. I will also admit it's been a while since we've had an actual recording. This will be like a first time rusting. I'm taking off the rust on my shoulders to conduct the interview. But I will say a lot what we were talking about, we had an introductory phone call before we had the episode, and a lot of what you were saying, I think, would just be perfect to implement as a beginning introduction to who you are and how you got here. I would love the audience to be able to give an opportunity to hear more about who you are and how you got to the point where you are in terms of creating a coffee brand. Sure.

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My name is Tanya Rao, and I am the founder of Kaveri Coffee Works. We're based in Berkeley and I focus and specialize on showcasing coffee from India. And my coffee story starts back in India. I grew up in Bangalore, which is the coffee capital of India. And my home state, Karnataka, grows 70 % of the coffee that's grown in India. So I grew up in a coffee family. We also had a family coffee business that was mostly local to India, and it was wholesale trading and roasting of coffee. So it was something that I grew up with. And then when I moved to the US for education and career, I got disconnected from the world of coffee in general, but especially Indian coffee. And I used to with people when I told them that my family, my dad is a coffee roaster and many people were surprised that India has coffee. And I was like, We South Indians love our coffee that we consume at all. So that's why you don't see coffee out back in India. I was not entirely correct. India actually exports 80 % of its coffee grown, but for some reason, it doesn't come to the US.

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Okay. And so fast forward a couple of years ago, I was looking to start my own business, and I was working in a totally different space in outdoor education and adventure travel. And I was looking to start my own business because it was a dream of mine that I had, and my dad was my inspiration to be your own boss and pave your own path. And I was working out of different coffee shops in the Bay Area, trying to ideate, research, and come up with my business plan. And the smell and sounds of coffee just made me nostalgic and took me back to my days in India and my dad's coffee business. And I got curious because especially in the last 10-15 years, there's been a greater focus on coffee origin and showcasing different coffees from these different origins. And I just never seen Indian coffee on any of the menus in cafes around here. So I got curious and started talking to some baristas. And many people didn't know that India Grow's Coffee. And now I've become familiar with that, that many people in the US don't know about India as a coffee origin.

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And those that have had Indian coffee didn't have a great experience with it. So that got me wondering, I was like, why is this the case? I clearly know that India grows coffee and it grows good coffee. So I wanted to somehow bring my knowledge and experience of Indian coffee and weave my family's coffee story as an opportunity to build community and share this rich coffee history from India. So I found a niche in the Bay Area of nobody really here roasting or representing Indian coffee, and it was something that was close to my heart, something that even though I had no experience in the coffee industry prior to starting this business, it was something that felt familiar to me. And I was like, Why not? I'm already in the process of creating something new, something that I can call my own. And so yeah, I took the leap and started Covery Coffee. Yeah, as a way to showcase Indian coffee, but also reconnect to my roots and my.

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Cultural heritage. Yeah, it's like coming full circle with everything. It's like implementing everything from every aspect of your life into creating something that's a legacy for you.

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Yeah. And when we think about doing meaningful work, you also have to think about what are the things that lend that meaning in your life. And there's so many options, right? I actually had a difficulty in choosing what I wanted to pursue because I have so many different interests.

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I can relate to this. Very much so.

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In that decision matrix in your head, you're trying to find that one thing that checks most of the boxes, because not everything is going to check all the boxes. And so I found, even though I had no knowledge, experience, skills in the coffee industry, it checked so many of those more like emotional and psychological fulfillment boxes than some of the other ideas I was pursuing.

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Yeah, I think at the end of the day, a lot of what we all as humans want to do is be able to be on some type of spiritually and emotionally fulfilling path and giving back. I think a lot of what we're here to do on this planet has to do serving and helping our community and other people. I think a lot of, especially the older people get, it's like, how much of that can be fulfilled in something I have the capacity to create?

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Yeah. What I found in working in the coffee industry is really like coffee is such a universal love and language that you meet people from different backgrounds, different cultures, different interests, personalities, and it really is something that brings a wide audience together.

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That's.

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Pretty.

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Powerful. I think besides music, I think coffee is one of the most nonverbal community-building spaces that can be brought to so many different communities. And it's so classless, in my opinion. I think that obviously hierarchy exists in a capitalist environment, but I think a lot of the time it spans from old varieties of life that participate in coffee and the enjoyment of what it brings.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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So how did you figure out the name for what you wanted to create?

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Yeah. So my family had... My grandfather was the one who actually started the coffee business in my family. And the business he started was called India Coffee Works. And my dad joined the business when he was a teenager. And when my grandfather retired, he brought on another partner and changed it to New India Coffee Works. And so I wanted to keep to the similar theme of the name, but not use the word India because I'm like, what other iteration can I.

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Have.

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Of the name? I did want to have a name that referenced and spoke to the origin. Caveri is the name of a river in South India that's considered a sacred river, and it's like a lifeline, like the Colorado River.

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Wow, that's so cool.

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And it spans a lot of different communities and a lot of big cities and stuff. So it's a huge resource. And where it originates is a big coffee growing region as well. So it had links to the land and to coffee in particular, but also for me it was again that connection to my homeland, my culture. And so the other aspect of the name and business is with sustainability and being conscious of your ecological footprint. And the river, because it's a huge resource and has to cater to a lot of different communities and their needs, there's a lot of challenges, right? With claims for the water, with the environmental impact on the river, and its ability to provide for the people that it's supposed to provide for. So in a way, it was a reminder of our own ecological footprint. And by honoring the land where we grow and what we rely on is just a way for us as consumers to be mindful and conscious about the decisions we make.

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I love every aspect of how interconnected you've been able to create your shop where it's like it has so much of your essence down from the roots of your heritage to a lot of what you're trying to stand for. And it makes me interested in knowing... I will say I'm very ignorant on also not knowing much about Indian coffee. So I definitely want to pick your brain about Indian coffee specifically. Is it Arabic or is it Robusta? What mostly comes from the region?

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Yeah, I'm a treasure trove of information, and it is my pleasure to share all of this information with everyone. So currently India grows both Arabic and Robusta, and Robusta production I think, outweighs Arabic and don't quote me on these numbers, but I think it's more of 70 % Robusta and 30 % Arabic. But there are certain regions. So the traditional or the original coffee growing regions are these three states in the southern part of India. Karnataka is one of them, and that is my home state. That's the one that grows 70 % of the coffee grown in India. Then the two neighboring states are called Tamil Nadu and Kerala, and they grow about 20 %, and then the remaining 10 % now is grown on the Eastern and Northeastern side of India. But in Karnataka, the largest percentage of Arabic coffee farms are located in Karnataka. And the place where coffee was first planted or grown, and the legend, I mean, the story of how coffee was brought to India, there's also a lot of legend, and we love telling stories. So there's a lot of myth and mystery wrapped around it. And the story goes that a Sufi Saint who lived in the foothills of Mountain Range in Karnataka went to Mecca for his spillingrimage, and there discovered the coffee houses in the Port of Mocha and just fell in love with the beverage coffee and smuggled seven beans in his beard on his way back to India and planted these seeds on the mountain's slopes of India.

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And the place where he planted it is named after him. The Saint's name is Baba Budhan, and Baba Budhankiri is the name of the mountain range where coffee was first planted. So that region is still now primarily Arabica growing region. It's both mixed Arabica and Robusta, but you'll see a larger concentration of Arabica farms in that region.

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I love the hiding the cherries beans in the beard.

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I love that. Yeah, and there's this whole reference to the seven seeds and seven being something to do with a spiritual number in the Muslim religion. So he wasn't, because at that time, the export of coffee was controlled by the Arabs, and it was a crime to take coffee beans or seeds out of the region. So because the number seven was sacred in the religion, he wasn't penalized or taxed for his smuggling. That's the story, as has been repeated several times, but I don't know the origins of it.

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I think that every growing region has some type of folk stories or folklore towards the origins of the coffee bean. I think everyone can tell a different story. I love that it's just like it's always so whimsical, too. It's always like a whimsical story.

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It's outlandish. Yeah. And that's the fun part, right? And even now, when coffee is shared or when brands are trying to create their own unique offering or unique presentation. It's all wrapping everything into a story is what makes it fun and approachable to others.

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I mean, what we're doing is also storytelling. It's just- Exactly. -it's your story. So everything it always comes back to it. Coffee brings back stories. Coffee brings people together to do storytelling. It's like a fuel.

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Absolutely. Yeah, in so many ways.

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So in the Bay Area, I think we had talked about on the phone also that you were trying to do something women... It had to do with a women's group. Was I mistaken on something like that?

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Oh, so I don't know if it's in the Bay Area or what we talked about. So obviously, women-focused and gender equity is a huge part of my whole ethos to just because of who I am. I've always been in professions where I've been in the minority, whether it's because of gender, race, ethnicity. So I'm always holding that loudspeaker and talking about these issues because it's fun to talk about and it's personal and it needs to be talked about. So even in India, the coffee industry is largely male dominated, especially when it comes to coffee producers and ownership of land. It's a very patriarchal hierarchy system where in the past, it was just the sons that would take over and the daughters get married right away and they go to their new married family and then that family's problem. That's how it has been. That's how it has been largely seen over centuries, but things are changing now. But thingsare changing now, but in general, all of the coffee farms in India, many of them are multigeneration farms. So the land has been passed on from generation to generation, and you'll see a lot of the farms are either fifth generation or the third generation farmers.

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And most of the times it is again managed or controlled by the male person in the family. So I wanted to seek out more women in the coffee industry, both in the US but also in India. And just over the last few years of trying to connect to the coffee community there, I've managed to connect with different women-owned or women-managed farms. So this year, one of my projects that I embarked on was being able to try and do a direct trade or direct buy from farms in India. Most of the importers here in the US, they bring coffee from India in larger lots. And it was hard for me to find coffee that of different varieties or where there's a little bit greater transparency. And so I went and tried to do that on my own. And I was able to, through different partners and resources, I was able to purchase coffee from five different farms that for all, I think for most of them, it'll be their first entry to the US market. Wow. And four of them are women owned, and one is mostly it's a family-owned, but the person I'm interacting with is a woman and she's the import export manager.

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So very women strong, working within the coffee industry in India. And so that has been a really fun and exciting exploration to go on.

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How was the process of finding them? Was it an easy navigation or did it take finagling, trying to go down a little bit further down that rabbit hole?

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It's a bit of both. I would say for me, my experience has been fairly easy. I wouldn't know if that would be the same for somebody else. So first couple of people I contacted through Instagram and then a few others- The power of.

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Social media.

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Exactly, yeah. And then a few others through the coffee network. It's a fine. I think it has been helpful a little bit for me, especially knowing the Indian landscape and knowing the culture. It's easier for me to approach and talk to people being from Bangalore. Like most of the coffee farms in Karnataka are within five to six hours drive from Bangalore. So Bangalore is the biggest capital or big city. And so many people have lived in or have family that live in Bangalore. And there's always a Bangalore connection there, which is always fun. So just I think knowing a little bit more about the landscape and the history and culture, some relationships have been feasible just from my family's history in coffee, even though... So my father passed away 12 years ago and my connection to the coffee world and the coffee business was lost at that point. But I do still remember people and places from his coffee days from when I was in India. And so trying to reconnect to those people and places I was able to do when I went to India last year. And in many ways, it's just one thing leads to another.

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Somebody makes a recommendation. And yeah, and it did take some proactive effort on my part. But once I was on that path, things seemed to work out fairly smoothly.

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That's good.

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And in many ways, when I was starting off the business, I was trying to think what aspect of coffee I wanted to get into, because there's just so many different places- It's a library. -along the supply chain. Yeah, exactly. And I thought about import-export because again, in the very beginning, I even considered buying back our family's business, which we had sold to my dad's partner after he passed away. But it was so local to India that I wouldn't be able to conduct the business from here. But I was like, since we have that connection, maybe I could do import, export. But the whole, it seems like such a daunting process, the process of importing coffee into the US with all the different logistical steps along the way, it was too foreign and too daunting for me to pursue that. And so I went with what the business model that my family had in India, which was just buying coffee from the producers and then just roasting it and reselling it. And so I stuck with the, I'm going to be a coffee roaster aspect of things. So this year, I got a little taste of the whole import-export process.

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And I will say you do need the middle people. You do not need those logistic people in the whole process that know how to get through, export and import customs, get all the paperwork in order, figure out shipping logistics, and then figure out where to store the coffee, how to store the coffee. I mean, those are all pretty detailed aspects, which are part of the whole supply chain. And so this idea of doing direct trade, I think, is idealized a little bit, especially from a marketing perspective. But in the pursuit of doing that, I fully respect and appreciate all the people in the middle that have to fulfill that role of getting the coffee from the farm to a warehouse where a roaster can have access to them. So deep appreciation for all of those processes and the people who do those processes. So have.

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You had a chance to visit any of the farms that you've been able to source from?

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Yeah. So last year I went to India to visit family, but also to visit some farms. And currently, I'm sourcing coffee from a couple of importers here in the Bay Area, and I was able to visit one of the farms that I'm currently sourcing coffee from. It's one of my baseline signature offerings that I've had from the beginning. And so my importer put me in touch with the producers in India, and I was able to go and do a farm stay there. So that was really cool. I went in the middle of July, which is the middle of monsoon season, so not the best time to visit a farm. Yeah, I almost wasn't sure I would be able to go to the farms because the week I arrived and I was visiting a week later, there were heavy rains that was causing mudslides and just wiping out access to a lot of places. But I was lucky enough to go visit. I'm like, I'll come back during the harvest season, but since I'm here, I might as well go check it out. And then I visited another farm, a contact that I made through Instagram, and that was the relationship where we were both like, she does import, export into the UK and Europe, but hadn't yet gotten into the US market.

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And we're like, let's figure this out and see if we can make it happen. I'm surprised that a year later, and I was able to figure out together with a few other producers, how to get coffee from these farms to the US. The coffee is on the water, it's on the ship. It hasn't reached here yet, but every step of the way I'm like, I can't.

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Believe this is happening.

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This.

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Is so cool. It's coming full circle. All that hard work.

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It is, yeah. Absolutely, yeah. It's really interesting, like when people enjoy their coffee, they see the last mile of the whole journey of what it takes from the coffee to get from the farm to their cup. And it's been really cool for me to understand and dive into the full process and journey of coffee. I would still like to go to visit a farm during the harvest season and see the actual processing, because these are all things that I've read about, seen videos about, but to actually see it happen in person, I think would be pretty cool.

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Yeah. How have you been received since opening up your shop and being very representative of your heritage and a lot of Indian coffee? How has that been for you?

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It's been great. I started in 2019, late 2019, and initially it was mostly friends and family. And then, of course, pandemic hit and it was hard for me to get out and into the community. Right. But just before the pandemic hit, I had a three-week stint at a local farmer's market. And while I will claim that and still stick to the fact that I don't have any barista skills and it's still an area that I find daunting, but it was super fun to be able to share my coffee with people.

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And.

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Tell the story. And people are just so fascinated, want to be exposed to a coffee origin that they're not very familiar with, then on top of it, to hear the story of my connection to coffee. So that was really fun. It was exhausting running my own coffee booth with whoever was available to help. I just pulled in to help. And then since then, I've done more planned events and pop-ups. But I definitely enjoy those moments when I'm able to interact with people directly and share a coffee. And many at times people are surprised to know that not only the history and my connection to coffee, but I'm also the one roasting it and presenting the coffee and selecting and doing all of those processes, because again, you don't see too many South Asian women in coffee here in the US.

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That's amazing, though. I can imagine the entire experience of that being really gratifying and... I mean, that's what you were... This is what I wanted to do. So having that in front of you and seeing people's reactions face front and being like, I've done so much to get here. And then look, look at these people and they're appreciating a lot of what you're doing without even having to realize all of the hard stuff you did to get there. It's got to be amazing. Right.

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Yeah, absolutely. And then in the pandemic, when everything was shut down and people were at home, initially, I was completely overwhelmed, as was everybody in 2020. And it was just like, let's survive this year. And at the other end in '21, I slowly started to reconnect and be engaged with the community, and I found a huge amount of support in the local community, both in terms of other businesses, but also people wanting to support small local businesses. And so yeah, that was really... It was a fuel that kept me going even through uptimes. And I've also developed in my own confidence, my own brand story, and in how to share my story. Because at first you're just like, Okay, I'm regurgitating this one paragraph over and over again. It's getting old. Yeah, even to me.

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It's like almost a promptor in your brain that's like, Okay, read this line.

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Exactly. And trying to find creative mediums of sharing. If I feel like I'm way more comfortable in person, but then when it comes to online and social media, it's definitely way more intimidating.

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And.

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As a small business, solo entrepreneur, you're trying to build skills in so many different ways, in so many different aspects of the business, it's hard to focus, or you have to pick what you can focus on. So obviously, I focused on the roasting and being able to produce a good product and share that with people. And I leaned on other people for help. My first freelance hire was for social media because I'm like, This is something I am not good at, and I don't necessarily want to learn. There are time to learn this.

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It doesn't help that. It's constantly changing and evolving. It's like once you get down and then it changes and then you feel like you can never keep up with it. So it's like, I can understand that 100 %.

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Absolutely, yeah. It's great that people have a passion and enjoy social media storytelling, and I'm just like, Wait, I'm going to get you on my team, because I'm not that person. Right.

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What has.

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Been your- Yeah, and even through that medium, trying to share my story and trying to find meaningful ways to connect with people, because it's not just a one-sided conversation, it's two-sided. And as you said earlier, coffee is about serving your community and building a community that interacts with each other in a way that everyone benefits.

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Right. Has interacting with importing and a lot of the process to importing Indian coffee been an easy process? I know that you're obviously a very strong woman, and you were vocal about it being a very patriarchal, male-driven, male-centric trade. So I was wondering if there was any difficulties you've run into or if it's just been...

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The biggest difficulty is that there's just such few options. I feel like I pretty much contacted every importer that imports coffee from India and gotten samples from them. And most of the coffee that comes into the US are from large commercial farms, and they're grouped either by region or by a processing method. And there's just three different big groups. There's Monsoon Malabar, which is a monsooning process. Coffee processing is unique to India, and so anything that any Indian coffee outside of India that's popular is usually everybody would have heard of Monsoon Malabar. That's what Indian coffee is known for, but it's a very specific flavor profile and a very specific process and has primarily like limited use in terms of brewing. It's good for Espresso, and some people enjoy it as drink or French Press, but it has limited versatility. And then there's Maesore Nuggets, ExtraBOLD, which is a category based on region and also based on quality. And outside of these two, and India is well-known for its Robusta too, we have very high-quality Robusta as well. So these are the three main categories of Indian coffee that's available. But when it comes to farm-level traceability or even different processing methods, there's very few options.

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There's just one or two coffee producers, coffee importers that bring in and have that level of traceability. And that's what I was looking for. I was looking for more fully traceable or coffee with good traceability that I can showcase and present in the same way that other coffee origins and coffee brands are presenting coffee from different parts of the world. So my biggest challenge was just having options. And beyond that, in the first iteration of just getting samples, that wasn't a problem. Most people were pretty responsive. And then even here in the Bay Area, I got some good response and conversation with importers that either want to bring in more traceable coffee or already do bring in and want to promote that more. But it takes time because when you are completely new to the coffee industry, people don't necessarily know whether they can trust you or take you seriously. And as a small roaster, I was ordering one, two bags to start off with. And so it's more of people wouldn't necessarily go out of their way to answer my questions or to cater to my needs. And that's understandable, especially when you're an importer working in larger volumes.

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I feel like you have a system in place, and sometimes a newcomer is always not necessarily the person who's going to get most of your attention. It shouldn't be that way, but it's not surprising that it is. So I would say over time, once I built my own knowledge and confidence and credibility, I was able to connect more with different importers. And I definitely connected with some importers who were like, Yeah, I can't believe nobody knows about Indian coffee. It's so great to see you do what you're doing. And they want to also support the same mission of promoting Indian coffee and talking more about the regions and the processing methods available.

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What has been your favorite part of the process?

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I've really enjoyed the roasting aspect of things. Really? I'm a foodie to begin with. And my first foray into entrepreneurship was in grad school. As a side business, I started teaching Indian cooking classes. It started off as a birthday gift to a friend, and she's like, You should do this as a business. People would pay for cooking lessons. So I've always been interested in food and science and smells and taste. And so when I first had my first coffee roasting lesson, it was just like, whoa, this is so cool. You can influence the flavor of coffee through the process of roasting in so many different ways. And I still feel like there's so much to learn, and I'm constantly learning. So that has been my favorite part is understanding how coffee flavor changes in the process of roasting, and then also trying to figure out what it is because it's a craft, right? It's like an artist. You could be painting with the same colors but come up with a totally different picture. And so that aspect of coffee science is super fascinating.

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There are so many variables that are easily manipulated when roasting that even subtleties will change the flavor profile automatically. And it is really fun because you can change only one variable and consistently roast it the same all around and it'll still have different results each time.

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Right, yeah. Then when I discovered how you could do that same whole process with brewing, that took me to mind as well. But I'm like, Okay, I don't have time to indulge in learning and experimenting with brewing. So that I do on a more at leisure than as part of my business. But as part of my business, I really enjoy being able to pick different coffees. And I started off with, okay, I'm going to offer three different coffees from three different farms, roasted slightly different profiles. And now I think I have eight coffees on my menu and will soon be bringing more on. That's awesome. And I'm like, Why am I adding so much complications to my offerings? But it's like it's so fun.

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It's also so good. If you're getting good coffees, yeah, you're just like, Oh, my God, people need to try this. It makes sense to me why I keep adding.

[: 00:44:28

Exactly. Yeah.

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So you were talking about how a lot of what, like earlier on about gender equity and sustainability, since this is a woman driven podcast and talking a lot about gender equity and a lot of just women's stories within their coffee journey, I would love to hear more about what you want to do in terms of your mission with gender equity.

[: 00:44:55

Yeah. On the origin side, I definitely want to be intentional about the people I work with and try to support women producers, women importers, the exporters, basically try to empower and pursue relationships with other women in coffee at Origin in whatever capacity makes sense, right? Simply as a coffee roaster, my direct link would be to a coffee producer. But the coffee industry in India is thriving and changing and constantly innovating itself. And so I want to stay connected to the coffee culture at origin and interact and collaborate with as many women in coffee as possible. And then here in the US, it's almost like I don't really need to make an effort as a woman in coffee, I naturally just gravitate to other women in coffee, and just in having that common passion and intention, I feel like I get involved in stuff. So yeah, just being able to show up and represent and share with other coffee entrepreneurs in this space is something that I want to continue doing.

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Have you had any interactions or experiences where it made you feel like there's something a little bit off in terms of being in such a male predominant industry?

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I wouldn't say so. I'm acutely aware of the fact that there's way more men and male coffee professionals, even at, in every aspect, like with coffee brands at a farmer's market or I roasted a community roastery, there's just in terms of numbers, there's just definitely more of male brands or male coffee professionals than female. So that's definitely like something that it's like an elephant in the room, you know it's there. But it hasn't necessarily led to a bad experience for me. I sometimes feel totally like an outsider, like an imposter. And that has, I don't think it's necessarily a gender-based feeling, just the fact that I haven't had much experience in the coffee industry itself makes me feel like an outsider, an imposter. But so far, every time I had any questions or wanted to learn something, it has been a very friendly and open environment for me.

[: 00:48:50

That's great. That's what we want to hear. That's the overall goal, right? Is that everyone feels welcomed into the community and everyone has a more positive and progressive experience?

[: 00:49:04

Yeah, absolutely. And I think it also helps in terms of my personality. I'm a little bit more outgoing and feel comfortable. I'm used to being in the minority and often don't feel too intimidated by it. I mean, there's definitely been cases where I've been uncomfortable or feel like I don't belong. But I'm also a little bit... I don't mind going in and being in a place where I'm like, Hey, I don't have the answers, but I'm willing to learn being a little bit... Being less intimidated by... I don't know what I'm trying to say here, but I guess I feel comfortable in uncomfortable situations.

[: 00:50:12

I like that a lot. I feel like I can relate to that too. And I don't know if that's just because I grew up as a minority, we're automatically put in a position where we have to be comfortable in uncomfortable situations out of like... Necessities? Yeah, I was just going to say I think a lot of it is just like it wasn't even our choice. We got placed onto that just because of the fact that we're all different and we come from different cultures, especially people who aren't even born and raised here. I think especially women and people of color collectively have such a stronger willpower to try and be innovative and be pioneers for what they're trying to create because it's just we're not going to back down. We're like, Exactly. This is our voices. This is what we're trying to stand up for. This is what we're trying to share. I think it's beautiful trying to share something that is so interpersonal with your family and your story and creating it into something that's so public. It is an experience, and the people who interact with you and the products that you give, you're also sharing that interpersonal story.

[: 00:51:21

It is such an intimate and vulnerable thing that you're making.

[: 00:51:26

Absolutely.

[: 00:51:28

It makes me happy to know that nothing's essentially going to make you uncomfortable and intimidated because it's like, I'm here and this is what I'm doing.

[: 00:51:39

Yeah, exactly. And it's all part of the learning process. I'm not saying that I'm always comfortable doing something new, right? It's always going to be challenging. And when I worked in experiential education, we used to have this activity where it's called the Circles of Comfort. And so you test what people's comfort zones are, comfort levels. And so you've got the inner circle being your safest, most comfortable zone, and then the next circle being the challenge or learning zone, and then the outer circle being the panic zone. And most of the time you want to put yourself into that middle circle. That's where you're being challenged, but you're also learning. You stay too long in the comfort zone, and there's going to be no growth and the panic zone, nobody wants to be there. So it's like figuring out when you get too comfortable, then you stop learning, you stop growing. And so you try to take a step towards that learning zone and challenge yourself. And it could be challenged in something that you want to learn to do or in a social setting. And so, yeah, I've always felt myself like I'm always leading myself into that challenge zone over and over again just because I thrive on learning.

[: 00:53:34

I thrive on pushing my limits, and that helps me.

[: 00:53:42

That's also like an inner, fire, competitive spirit of how much am I truly capable of that? It's like you're trying to prove it to yourself and not to other people. That it's like...

[: 00:53:56

Yeah, absolutely. I know when I've been in a comfort zone for too long. I'm just like.

[: 00:54:02

I'm bored. Yeah, I can relate to this. It's like, I need some time of stimulation. Nothing's happening here.

[: 00:54:10

Exactly, yeah.

[: 00:54:12

Yeah, when you were talking about no one wants to be in that panic zone, I kept thinking about the people who have had to stay in this survivalist mindset where there's different avenues of their life being attacked in a way, whether it's in different ways that can be represented. But I think overall, everybody needs some type of challenge in their life to really make any huge differences for themselves and the people around them.

[: 00:54:43

Yeah, absolutely.

[: 00:54:44

I think a lot of that also plays into risks and what's worth, like stepping out of that comfort zone, taking that leap versus like, okay, do you take this risk and then you're falling into that lake of panic.

[: 00:54:58

Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it also your experience in the past, it forms.

[: 00:55:07

What you're.

[: 00:55:09

Willing to do, what challenges you're willing to take, what is your comfort zone? And yes, as a woman of color in the US, there are people that have had all sorts of different experiences, and it's hard to have this blanket approach of always having to challenge yourself. In many ways, I feel like that speaks to a little bit of privilege in my own upbringing or my own past experience where I haven't felt truly threatened or truly been in a situation where I was in the panic zone.

[: 00:55:59

For.

[: 00:55:59

Survival or for my own mental well-being. And so I think it is helpful to have more women role models, especially for situations when people have had really tough circumstances or experiences in the past, and it feels even too scary to be in the challenge zone and to the learning zone. And you're always circling, gravitating towards comfort, safety, and security. So I myself will look to other women in business and particularly women of color, whether it's in the coffee industry or beyond, because for me, it's a measure of what is possible. I think the more we have that, the better it is for the world and for future generations.

[: 00:57:21

I think representation in general is really important, but I really liked what you said about needing women and people of color and specifically both of those altogether to create almost... I like this word that I've been using recently. I've been using the word sisterhood. I feel like that there's such a strength in women in the community that we create and queer women also. It's just something that's so magical and empowering. It's good to have multitudes of different kinds of women representation. Not every woman has to have a tragic trauma story. In my opinion, I really just genuinely would prefer women to not have trauma stories. But I think that- Absolutely. -each person needs some type of representation so that it does show that endless amount of possibilities are shown that no matter where you come from, what you've experienced what challenges have been placed before you, there are women in that middle that all have congealed and come together to create and be in forms inspirational towards each other. I love when I get to meet people on the show who come and they tell me these things, and then it's just reinforcing a lot of these same philosophies that we all have.

[: 00:58:38

Yeah, absolutely. I think women, in general, have a tendency to growth through collaboration, growth through relationship building, we naturally gravitate towards that versus more individualistic or solitary experiences.

[: 00:59:09

Right. Yeah, I think just touching on the fact that this applies to both of us being people of color, coming from a culture that's very segregated in terms of women and men community and social aspects, it's like I'm very much ingrained in understanding that women have a very sacred bond that's nonverbal also.

[: 00:59:36

Yeah, absolutely. In my upbringing in culture, there's just also predefined roles that women are prescribed to. And it's almost if you want to do something different or go against the grain, you're considered an outsider or you're considered a rebellion. And in many ways, I've embraced that rebellion as a.

[: 01:00:15

Positive.

[: 01:00:16

Thing for myself, and have constantly, in my own life, challenged those social norms and expectations in pursuing something that I want to do. And in doing so, I have heard and met more people who do the same or want to do the same and are afraid to or just don't think it's possible, but anything is possible if you put your mind to it and if you believe in it. But it is very difficult to swim upstream. Right. Going against the current- -go into the masses. Yeah. Right.

[: 01:01:12

Yeah, I mean, that all comes down to like, what is that phrase? It's like you're leading how you want to live your life so that other people can see that there is a possibility. So it goes back to the whole spectrum of possibilities and living in those zones of comfort versus challenge that just exist and working and existing as women.

[: 01:01:41

Yeah, absolutely. And even in the coffee industry, I definitely seen the shift and the change, and obviously it's because we're also seeking that to hear more of it. You come across more women-owned coffee brands. I follow different female baristas or roasters, and you just want to be part of that community because you want to see it grow and help get... Because that's the only way it'll change for future generations is by coming together and collectively making an effort to change the status quo, right?

[: 01:02:40

Right.

[: 01:02:43

Yeah, I'm like- So for me, I find it very inspiring to see... I see a lot of women in the coffee profession, but that's what I'm seeking. It's also there and it's to be celebrated, it should be talked about, and I think it's great that that representation is growing.

[: 01:03:11

Right. I don't know why just all of a sudden- A.

[: 01:03:14

Lot of work.

[: 01:03:15

To be done. But I don't think it'll ever stop. I think in general, we've been fighting for this need to be on the same pedestal for decades and decades. Yeah. It'll be something that I think is just going to constantly just get stronger. I think the voice will always be there and it'll get stronger. But it's funny because you were saying that and I instantly thought of the Barbie movie. I know that's really not related, but it's related. It's a lot about being against and for women and understanding the problematic stuff that exists in society with patriarchy. But that is besides the point. But that's a great movie. It's a great movie. It's a great movie of basically reinforcing essentially what we're trying to say overall. But I think I would love to know, based off of everything that you've learned so far, and do you happen to have a little hot take of controversy that you feel like something in the industry or something you've experienced in the industry that's either overrated or seems like it's not legitimized or it's something that just is unnecessary that's happened. I always do this with... I'm starting this new thing called Hot Takes, little sizzling Hot Takes.

[: 01:04:34

Yeah, no, I love it. I love it. For me, it's definitely around the idea of how to prescribe value to coffee, or not prescribe. How does one say one coffee is better than the other? Kind of like the... And it goes back to coffee origins. I feel there is definitely a elitism around certain coffee origins with relation to taste and quality. Yeah. And it feels very unfair to other coffee origins, right? Right. Yeah. It's coffee from different places taste differently. Coffee from the same place taste differently. Right. And so to have a comparison chart orand people are allowed personal opinions, but on a more industry-wide to have these concept of these origins produce better quality coffee is something I take issue with. That for me is like... Yeah, it's a topic that I get super sensitive about or I feel like I can heat.

[: 01:06:34

I definitely think that every person who's worked in the coffee industry, especially in the specialty coffee industry, have all either by clients or by people that also work in the industry have had opinions or questions where they're just like, Oh, what's your favorite coffee? What's the best region? I hate that question also because it's like, Well, what are you looking for when you're experiencing coffee? Every region is going to give you a different experience. That doesn't mean one is better than the other. And it's been told so many times on the show, the myths and the fanciful logistics of quality and what that represents and how that strips a lot of that human experience that comes from the actual the tree, the bean. At the end of the day, I don't think there's ever an answer for that question.

[: 01:07:26

Yeah, absolutely. When I came into the specialty coffee world, there's definitely two languages that are spoken. There's the language from a scientific perspective, how quality is measured and totally understand. It's good to have a universal language that we can compare and contrast different aspects of coffee- Analysis and science.

[: 01:07:55

-coffee characteristic. Like analysis and science.

[: 01:07:59

Yeah, exactly. There's that world of the coffee Greek, the elitist club. Then there's the language that consumers, the people who drink the coffee, who enjoy the coffee, they speak a tour language. And yeah, it's more like street language, and it has different dialects, and so that... But to me, that is the language that is way more beautiful and way more relevant when wanting to sell my coffee versus I like the nerdy stuff, and I like learning about it, but it's more of a knowledge base than a conversational or the absolute truth. That is not what I would... And I'm learning this as I go along. It's like you've got to almost switch your brain when talking the coffee Greek to talking the street talk, and finding that connection between the two is like, how do you want to present your coffee to the audience with this knowledge as the foundation, but translating it to the street talk that they understand? And I think sometimes many people forget to translate, and then it becomes this... Yeah, it becomes lost in translation.

[: 01:10:04

I feel like a lot of the time coffee can become very much lost in translation, and I think it can also be lost in intention.

[: 01:10:14

Yeah.

[: 01:10:15

So I think all of it altogether just ties to it, but very great way of describing the language. It's code switching, essentially, from that Greek elitist a lot of the terminology goes in and out of my ear. I'm like, I have no idea what's being said, but it's really fascinating. Yeah, we do need this for the innovation of coffee and preserving coffee and understanding a lot more on a chemical and compound level what it provides and what it's capable of doing and how it transforms in different things. But also for most of the everyday enjoyment and routine, that is coffee. It is at the end of the day, exactly what me and you are doing, which is a conversation. So overall, it all needs to be tied. There needs to be two different sides weighing in together and there needs to be a middle language that is able to transcend and basically pour out all that information so that they're all valid.

[: 01:11:19

Absolutely. Yeah.

[: 01:11:21

Yeah. So that's always like the hardest part because I'm not the best with the science stuff. I find it really interesting and I want to learn more about it. But it's intimidating also, and that's also projected onto most consumers that are taking coffee how much people can geek out and nerd on the Greek side of coffee language.

[: 01:11:45

And it gives this impression that there's a right and wrong way of doing things. It's not entirely true.

[: 01:11:51

Right.

[: 01:11:53

The right way is your way, whatever that is.

[: 01:11:59

Yeah, I agree with that, too. The right way is whatever your way is in terms of how do you enjoy the coffee experience, really. And I also think if you can get people on a basis level to enjoy the coffee experience, that they'll essentially be inspired by whatever the product is to learn more about that other side, anyways. So it's just a train of thought. It's like a cycle at the end of the day.

[: 01:12:21

Yeah, absolutely. And it's about, yeah, just coffee is more of a medium for, I think, for bigger things to happen. And whether it is for people to get together to share a meal or share a conversation or to challenge social status quo or.

[: 01:12:57

Change.

[: 01:12:59

The equity. It could be a small or a big impact. And it really is the vehicle and the medium to do so. And so while it's all like, yeah, it is super interesting and there's a whole world and profession of coffee science. It's I think also helpful to be able to communicate in a way that people understand and not just feel limited by the science aspect of things.

[: 01:13:42

Right. Yeah, I agree with everything. Literally, I feel like that's the goal that we're all in agreement and understanding of what we're trying to create at the end of the day. And I think Itry to think that it just comes down to just having that conversation first and bring a lot of awareness, which is a lot of what this podcast is trying to do.

[: 01:14:07

But.

[: 01:14:08

I will say I really do appreciate you coming on the show. It's been great hearing your story, hearing your perspective. Thank you so.

[: 01:14:16

Much for having me.

[: 01:14:17

It was amazing to sit and talk and definitely debate more. I definitely spoke a lot more on this episode, but it was fun to debate and have a real conversation going forth about so many different avenues in the industry.

[: 01:14:33

Yeah, absolutely. I enjoyed it. Thank you for having me on the show and for even just doing this podcast. It's wonderful idea.

[: 01:14:43

Thank you. Was there anything else you wanted to leave off? You can always plug things into. I always advise people to just take advantage, self-promote. Yeah.

[: 01:14:54

Well, for all those who haven't tried Indian coffee, I am happy to share a wide variety of coffee from India. And check out my website. I do have a lot of origin information as well. And in India, we have our own brewing method, which is like a percolation drip brewer and a coffee beverage made with this drip brewer. So there's a lot of different cultural elements that I love to share about Indian coffee that doesn't just have to do with where the coffee is grown.

[: 01:15:32

Right.

[: 01:15:34

I love sharing that stuff. Most of the stuff can be seen on my Instagram page or my website.

[: 01:15:44

Awesome. Well, I really appreciate your time and talking. I know we've been chatting for a bit.

[: 01:15:52

Thank you so much for having me.

[: 01:15:54

Well, I will release you, and I hope you have a great rest of your day. And thank you so much for talking. All right.

[: 01:16:01

Thanks. Bye.

[: 01:16:08

I think my favorite part was her saying the language, like having that language barrier she was talking about about the elitist Greek versus the the slang or whatever was it? Yeah, it was street language. And I was just like, yeah, that's a perfect way to really distinguish between... Or like other people on the show I would say coffee bro logic, like this almost of pretentiousness that comes from data analytics and coffee world is really intimidating. It doesn't matter what science is, science is intimidating, especially to people who are traversing coffee in general. This is all new territory and people don't understand how deep this can go. There's so much science and data analysis on the coffee, on chemical reactions to the brain, on what caffeine provides, what it all is entailing, what manipulation to the ground level and learning all about that versus a lot of the time people just on a consumer more street basis talk about coffee and the enjoyment, what beverages they like. I love the what I implemented as code switching. All of it just needs to intermingle. I think that it's important to have both sides. Not one is better than the other.

[: 01:17:22

Not one should be without the other. There were so many facets to this episode that it all seemed so well-rounded. It was a very well-rounded conversation having with her from her story to what she wants to really focus on. And then I loved this little psychological segment of Comfort Zones and what she brought into that, because in reality, that can be applied to so many different aspects of life. And I think that understanding what comfort zones are and then challenges and then that level of panic. I think that it's just such a good way to also use that when it comes to problem-solving, to risk-taking, to just conversational aspects also. There's just so many... There is just a lot of good things being said this episode. I feel very much like a lot has been shun of light on.