Stacey Lynden, Swiss Water Cupping Lab Manager

Stacey: Sorry.

Elena: I'm a person that does have a lot of energy.

Stacey: That's okay.

Elena: Welcome to the show.

Stacey: Thank you.

Elena: I have been recommended by you. By somebody. Uh, okay, so I will be upfront. I am coming into this pretty blind, so I can't wait to get to know you through this episode.

Stacey: Awesome. Oh, that's fun.

Elena: So go ahead and just take a minute to introduce yourself.

Stacey: Okay. Hi. I'm Stacey Linden. I am the cupping lab manager for swiss water decaf. Um, so I look after all of the quality control here at Swiss Water.

Elena: Is it hard? It's always a little bit awkward. It's like we're in it's always a.

Stacey: Little bit awkward, right. When you're, like, introduce yourself and you're like, I don't know, what do I say?

Elena: It's okay. I just need a few things that I can just bounce off of so that it can kind of just Flo.

M competed in barista competition, brewers cup cup tasters coffee

Elena: So QC, um, in swiss decaf you said swiss water decaf water.

Stacey: Yeah. So I'm in Canada. Um, I've been in coffee for over 20 years. Wow. M competed in barista competition, brewers cup cup tasters coffee and good spirits. I have coached in the US. And Canada for barista roasters and coffee and good spirits. I have won barista league.

Elena: Um wow. That's wild.

Stacey: There you go.

Elena: So many things under your belt that you've accomplished.

Stacey: Yeah. And I think bethany was the one who recommended. Yeah. So I met Bethany, uh, at golden bean this year, which is a roasting competition that happens in north America and in Australia. Um, been doing that for ten years.

Elena: Wow. How did you get into doing coffee, specifically? What got you also interested in wanting to do decaf?

Stacey: In decaf? Okay. Well, I was working in coffee all through university, so it was just kind of the job that I was doing. And then once I finished university, I became an archaeologist. I did that for a little while.

Elena: Whoa.

Stacey: And then in between contracts, a friend of mine was opening a cafe and was like, do you want to help? And I said, sure. Um, archaeology in the pacific northwest is very cold and very wet, so it was nice to come inside for a little while. And then I started competing. Uh, and then after that, I started roasting. And then I kind of just kept going with coffee. And then, I guess almost two years ago now, they needed somebody here for QC at swisswater mhm. And so Mike strump, who is our director of coffee, reached out to me, and he was like, do you know anybody who would be interested in this job? I was like, well, I might be interested in this job. Um, so I kind of took the job. I came in pretty blind, to be totally honest. But I've kind of jumped in headfirst to pretty much every job I've done in this industry, from barista to here. It's kind of been like, oh, do you want to do this and I'm like, why not, right? M, I may as well give it a try. Um, again, I honestly didn't know a lot about decaf before coming here. It's like, well, they soak it in water and then something happens and the caffeine goes away and then it's decaf is kind of like, where my realm of knowledge on that was. So it's been a huge learning experience being here for me for the past two years now. Um, so pretty much I just got asked and I said, sure, why not?

Elena: Yeah. So I'm super interested in hearing more about progressively we'll get through it.

What got you interested in archaeology when you went to university

Elena: But starting at the origin of archaeology, what got you interested in that? Was it another, like, I'm just going to dive into it, or was it something that kind of like, started and.

Stacey: Then grew into pretty much when I started going to university, I didn't know what I wanted to do. Mhm, I think like most 20 year olds or whatever, you have no idea. It was just one of those things. My parents were like, you have to go to university or you have to move out. And I'm like, okay, here we go. Uh, so I just started taking anthropology classes and I really liked them. I, um, love the study of culture and the study of society and all of that. And then I started to focus more on Pacific Northwest First Nations. Since I'm in the Pacific Northwest.

Elena: Right.

Stacey: Um, and just having a better understanding of Indigenous land and where we are and kind of working more on that side of things. So working with Indigenous people and learning more about them and everything to do with that was really important to me. Um, a lot of my friends growing up were Indigenous and I had had the opportunity to be a part of so many amazing things and I wanted to learn more. Um, so that's where that kind of led. Uh, and then I ended up working more in the archaeology department or field of anthropology. Mhm um, and working with different Indigenous bands up here before coming back to coffee.

Elena: Yeah.

Stacey: And then kind of those parallels. Just too often we're working with different Indigenous peoples in producing countries as well, so there is a lot of parallels as well in what we do here in coffee as well, so getting to tell those stories.

So you said you started working as a barista during your university years

Elena: So you said you started working as a barista during your university years?

Stacey: Yeah.

Elena: Were you also studying anthropology at the same time then?

Stacey: Yeah.

Elena: So how did the distinction of choosing coffee go for you when you were studying anthropology and then archaeology?

Stacey: How did it um, I think when I started in coffee, coffee was not good. This is a long time ago. Um, we still had flavored coffees, flavored coffees and portion packs, um, to be honest. So it was definitely more of a social thing even, you know, it was getting and I lived in a small town and it was about kind of getting to know the people that were coming in the door every day. Kind of doing my own anthropological studies, really, from the very beginning. Right. It's just for me, people have always been the important part. Um, and cafes being a center of like, again, this is before a whole know Facebook and all these kinds of know, before we were all stuck on our phones, mhm. It was still kind of an area of connectivity and talking and spending time together. And there were no laptop campers. There kind of was none of that. So it was still kind of that more social space, mhm. Um, so learning other people's stories, which is, again, like the main part of being an anthropologist, mhm, is telling stories and learning about culture and society.

Elena: Right.

Stacey: And seeing this kind of culture happen within this small little establishment. It's pretty special.

Elena: How has it been for you? Uh, now, I mean, obviously you kind of saw this transformation from when you were talking about it not having this kind of lack of society or communication aspect in coffee culture. Now for cafes versus, um, what you were used to before. What are your thoughts on that?

Stacey: That's fun. I am a big advocate. I kind of love it when people say there's no WiFi or there's no plugs. I think there is a shift, mhm, these days to becoming kind of stepping away from being like the internet cafe. And I think there is a shift that's happening again, which is really exciting, is seeing coffee shops becoming attempting to become more of a special place to have conversation and to meet with people. And I think now that we're coming back into the world and everything, I think having the opportunity to go and talk with people and spend time with people is a lot kind of more special than it may have been.

Elena: Yeah, I think COVID has a lot to do with us appreciating community spaces more than when we kind of took them for granted before.

Stacey: Exactly.

You started as a barista and then started roasting coffee

Elena: So you started as a barista and then what was the train step after that?

Stacey: The train step after that? Um, I was a barista for a long time and then I went, well, I stopped being a barista, mhm, and I came back. And then while I was working as a barista, I got asked, uh, if I had ever thought about competing, mhm? And I had honestly never been on my radar at all. I was like, what is that? I don't even know what that is. Um, so I did a little with the company that we were buying coffee from at the time, did a little training session. So I went to that with a couple of the baristas that I was managing at the time, hoping that one of them would do it, but none of them did it. So I was like, okay, well, I will do it this year, but one of you has to do it next year kind of thing. So, yeah, I decided to do barista competition that year. And that's kind of where everything kind of started to take off for coffee. And then after I finished my first barista competition, customer, uh, came into the shop and asked me, oh, have you ever thought about roasting? I was like, no, not really. Well, you should go meet my friend. He roasts every, uh, I don't know, every Sunday or every Monday at this place in the city. You should go see him. So I did. As you can see, I'm like, yeah, sure. It tends to be like, that's just what I did. And then I went to this shop downtown in the city. I was living in a small town at that time. Um, there was a man there roasting in the back. And I kind of, like, knocked on the door. I'm like, hi, what are you doing in there? And I kind of spent the day with him just watching, like, sitting on the dishwasher, pretty much just kind of, like, watching what was going on. And then slowly, he's like, oh, do you want to put one in? Do you want to press the button? Um, and then kind of got asked if I wanted to come back the next day, next week, and I did, and then slowly kind of progressed with that. And that's how I learned to roast. Um, it was for a nonprofit social enterprise that, uh, helps women get out of at risk situations and kind of come back into the more mainstream workforce, if you will. Um, so they also kind of wanted a woman to be roasting, but, uh, at that time, there were no women m. Roasting in Canada, actually. My friend and I have realized since then that we were both on opposite sides of the country, about as far away from each other as we possibly could be, feeling like we were literally the only two women in the entire country roasting, but we know there was at least two of us now.

Elena: Mhm.

Stacey: Yeah. And then I just kind of kept climbing that ladder. Climb that ladder.

Elena: I, uh, love how organic it seemed like it didn't seem like you were particularly seeking it out. It just sort of was just like, I have an opportunity. Do you want to take it?

Stacey: Yeah. And I think it's important to take those opportunities too. I think you can be shy and you can be nervous, but most of the time, I feel like it's going to work out. I mean, so far, it's worked out for me. I don't know.

Elena: I think you're the best representation of I think it worked out for me.

You competed in barista competition your first time and made it to Nationals

Elena: So, um, roasting and then competing. How has competing been for you? Ah. Do you feel like you kind of found your stride in competitions, or did you do it once and you're like, I could just never do that again.

Stacey: Um, the first time I competed was pretty crazy. Um, barista competition is probably one of the hardest things I've ever done in my entire life. I will never do it again. I, um, managed to make it to Nationals on my first go.

Elena: Oh, my God.

Stacey: Which was wild in itself. Um, but again, I came from a small town in a super small cafe. So it was just me and my mom and national. It was wild. And just seeing all these huge teams and just so organized and we didn't even understand the level at that point. I had no idea the level of seriousness that any of this was. Then you kind of get there and you're like, whoa, okay, so this is it. There's teams and all these people and they're organizing their stuff and they've got other people doing their dishes. And then, yeah, there's me and my mom. And I'm like, cool. And at one point, I remember walking up on stage and I'm looking out into this pretty big crowd, or it felt huge. Whether or not it was, I have no idea. But in my head, the crowd was huge. And I'm like, I don't remember anything I'm going to say. I mean, I could just walk away. My mom has to love me. And it's funny because she wasn't my friend then, but she's kind of like one of the judges and she's kind of giving me that look like, you can do this. And I'm m looking at her and I'm like, I can do this. And I did. And I finished. And it was so funny because I ended up meeting her later on. And I remember when I judged you, you were so nervous, and she had never felt like she could compete. And she's just like, well, if you could do it and you finished it, that kind of gave me the courage to do it right. You were just putting yourself out there. So I think those are kind of like the really important things that you kind of don't notice happening when they're happening, or like, it's those stories that are super special. It's when it comes back to you and you kind of feel like it was a failure, but then you're like, oh, well, I inspired somebody to give it a shot.

Elena: Yeah. I think I love this humble beginning. It seemed like there was a humble beginning story and then it kind of transpired into and doing all these other things.

Do you have any extremely memorable moments during your coffee journey so far

Elena: Throughout the course of your coffee journey, do you have any extremely memorable moments during your journey so far?

Stacey: My journey so far, that was definitely a memorable moment, I think was just kind of, um, and then I feel like there's a lot of like, I've had the opportunity to compete a few times. Um, I think winning barista league was a big one. That was a big surprise. Um, it's kind of one of those things. You kind of go out there and you do your best, and then you're waiting for them to hand out your little grab bag. Like, yeah, you did good. And then they don't call your name, and they don't call your name, and they don't call your name, and you're like, oh, my gosh, we're in the final three. And you're kind of standing up there and you're like, okay, well, they didn't call our name for third. Mhm. Okay, now we're in the final two. And in my head, I'm like, oh, we're totally second. Because I don't know. I don't know why I think, uh, and then winning was I think that's probably one of my most memorable moments, for sure.

You went straight to roasting after leaving competition world

Elena: So when you kind of escaped the competition world, did you go straight to roasting from then, or was that just like, alongside of doing that too?

Stacey: Yeah, I still compete now.

Elena: Okay.

Stacey: Um, I don't roast anymore, which is a weird thing. Feels a little weird. I thought I would roast forever, to be totally honest.

Elena: Oh, you really enjoyed it then?

Stacey: I did, yeah. Um, I did really enjoy roasting. I still roast the office coffee here. Mhm, I guess I do roast a little bit and then sample roasting. But I did really enjoy roasting a lot. Um, and I've chosen to always compete. Um, kind of one of those things. I made a friend, I guess, like, five years ago or so. And he's like, yeah, I just kind of try everything because why not try everything once? I was like, that sounds like fun. Why not? Um, and I think kind of I used to play a lot of sports when I was younger. And then as an adult, there's not as much time or there aren't as many things to do. So coffee competitions are kind of like my sport.

Elena: I would assume that's a sport too, with all of the stuff that I've watched having to have been done. Yeah, there's a lot with that mentality of when you walked into it and you're like, whoa, that's a lot. I also was just like, whoa, this is a lot. I don't know if I could have it in me to do all that under pressure.

Stacey: So it's kind of like my outlet for my competitive side, which is really nice. I really look forward to it a lot.

You cup coffee before it goes into the decaffeination process

Elena: So when you, uh, started working in decaf, how was that transition from working mostly in caffeinated coffee?

Stacey: Well, the funny thing is, I still work mostly in caffeinated coffee. Um, I do both. Mhm our lab, we cup all of the pre shipment samples and approve or reject them before then. We cup all of the arrivals. So this is all regular coffee. Um, so we cup and approve anything before it goes into the decaffeination process.

Elena: So you cup it before it gets decaffeinated?

Stacey: Yes. Wow. I cup it to make sure that there's no defects, um, that it has the right profile that we're looking for. So kind of those things. So we cup everything before it goes through and then once it's been decaffeinated, we also cup it next to the original grain. Mhm, so we're always cupping it with the original coffee, even to make sure that it is as close to the original product as possible.

How much of the flavor profiles actually change after the process it goes through

Elena: I was going to ask how much of the flavor profiles actually change? Is it like a significant change after the process it goes through?

Stacey: It's really interesting because we actually just moved to a brand new facility, mhm, we were up and running officially, completely since July. And so it was really interesting to see the change from our old facility to the new facility. Because before, I think there was definitely kind of this flavor. Right. I mean, all decap has a flavor. Um, but what I found from our original plant is that we had kind of this more perceived acidity. That was the biggest change for me. Whereas here, I don't know if it's with the new technology or the new things that we're doing, but it's much closer than it was before.

Elena: Yeah.

Stacey: So we actually look at we have a scale that's called likeness and how much alike the two coffees are.

Elena: Uh huh.

Stacey: And I'm seeing that score kind of go higher well, than it ever was while I've been here, at least.

Elena: Yeah.

Stacey: So it's a really interesting thing to see. Um, again, it's always going to taste a little bit different. I think it's virtually impossible because it goes through such a huge change, mhm, to become decaffeinated. I, um, think kind of the most common things that we see here is that it's just like a little bit more savory. Mhm, I would say is kind of the thing that we see the most, but overall, it's quite close.

Elena: So when you brought up your old lab and being able to taste more of the acidic front after the change versus now it having a closer likeness, how much of the, uh, change of technology you said kind of impacted a lot of the ability for the likeness to stay closer to the original green? What in that amount of time kind of like, grew the technology to get it that way?

Stacey: I think it's just our production obviously our production team paid attention to all of the things that are at our old facility that were working, that weren't working. And then while building this facility, we obviously have the opportunity to make all of those changes that we wanted to make. And again, it can be like, I think it's little things. There's devices that clean the coffee a little bit better before it goes into the process. Mhm. Our dryers, I think, are more even. It's just the little things, like, it gets dried out more evenly. It's honestly just like little tiny things.

Elena: Um, like the tension to details make.

Stacey: A difference, it seems. Yeah. And having the ability to just kind of make those really small fine adjustments and kind of build, I don't know, our dream plant, if you will.

Elena: Yeah, it seems like it's um, working out in that favor then. I think so.

How would you describe the decaffeinated process for coffee

Elena: I know that this is a multilayered question, but okay. If you can sum it up or you can go into as much detail as you really want to, how would you describe the decaffeinated.

Stacey: Process? Like, how does it happen here? Yeah. Cool. Oh yeah, for sure. So first we get green coffee. Then the green coffee is um, first the silver skin comes off so we kind of get rid of that layer so that it just makes it easier for the process. I'll explain a little bit. Then it gets soaked in just like kind of like a warm hot water until the bean expands. Just mushing those two words together. So the bean expands 50% and so it's become more porous and more soluble. Then the bean gets put into green coffee extract, which is all the soluble compounds found in green coffee minus the caffeine. And then what happens is the green coffee extract takes on that caffeine from the coffee through osbosis. And then once the coffee is 99%, 99.9% caffeine free, it's removed from the green coffee extract and then put onto the dryers. Once it comes back down to about 10% moisture, the coffee is ready to be bagged, shipped and sold and that's it.

Elena: Wow. When it's going through that osmosis process, how is that being circulated? Is it in a tank? Is it in an irrigation system?

Stacey: Yeah, you have these big giant cylindrical tanks. Um, and then the green coffee extract kind of just flows through the coffees. And then our other lab has all kinds of crazy machinery that is way past my level of expertise and that kind of detects the caffeine levels throughout. Um, yeah, we have a whole other quality lab, mhm that does all of the kind of more scientific stuff. Right. You can tell I'm real science person, but yeah, they look after all of that and they monitor the caffeine levels throughout everything.

Elena: Um, have you worked in quality control before?

Stacey: Doing mean, I've done the QC part of roasting like a roasting company for sure. I cup and I have my queue and kind of all of that. Um, so definitely done QC on I've done a lot of QC on the tasting part of coffee. Um, but again, the kind of food science QC is not my forte. But it's really interesting. It's really cool to kind of have the opportunity to learn about that as well.

Elena: Yeah.

You say you've been to Nicaragua and Honduras

Elena: Have you had an opportunity to travel to origin then?

Stacey: Yeah, I uh, was in Honduras at the beginning of this. Um mean, I've been to Honduras. I've been to Peru. I've been to Costa Rica.

Elena: Nicaragua? Yeah, I would say you've been to.

Stacey: Origin, then I've been to So.

Have there been times when you've questioned whether you want to continue roasting

Elena: So at this point in your career, or just like that's, a lot of your lifetime of, uh, working in coffee in different aspects, have you experienced anything that kind of set you back to reevaluate wanting to work in coffee? I know that everybody has different experiences that have made them feel like, I don't really know if I want to continue doing this or if it's given you m, more motivation to try and change it. I don't know. That's giving you the reins to figure that one.

Stacey: Out. I think there's definitely yeah, I mean, there's definitely been times where I have, uh, kind of asked myself, why am I like, why am I doing this? Right? And I have been in coffee over half my life. Yeah. Um, and I've had the opportunity to see the industry change in so many ways. Um, and it's amazing to see how diverse it has become, because when I started, it really wasn't, um, and I would say when I started roasting, there were times over and over and over and over again, I was asking myself, why am I doing this? Um, because, like I said, there were literally no women roasting. Mhm, or if you were a woman, you felt like you were, like, the only one. Right. Um, and the amount of times that you get asked, well, can you lift 150 pounds? And it's like, who the hell can lift 150 pounds? You shouldn't be lifting 150 pounds. I shouldn't be lifting 150 pounds. And why does that matter? I'm not going to be lifting 150 pounds over my head and putting it in. Nobody's doing that, bro. So there was a lot happening kind of at that time, um, and a lot of that time, I honestly did, I asked myself over and over and over again, why am I doing this? Um, but I think, uh, as time progressed, I found my niche, and I did keep roasting. I roasted for probably almost ten years.

Elena: Oh my God.

Stacey: Yeah. Um, and just, again, having the opportunity, I've, you know, I have trained you know, I I've only trained one straight man, period, ever that I've had the opportunity to train. I choose to train people who are more diverse or who are we have enough white men roasting, train more people. My door has always been open in that retrospect. And I've had the opportunity to train some amazing women how to roast. And just seeing where it has taken them and seeing them, um, teach other women to roast, that to me, was, again, kind of a win after all of the garbage in the beginning. Kind of just seeing how it kind of just all spider webbed out and then having the opportunity to have conversations afterwards and know that there were other women, uh, there were more of us. And I think that we're seeing more and more diversity in the roasting realm of things, and in coffee in general, that, uh, there's a long way to go, don't get me wrong, but I think it's all headed in the right direction, and I will continue as much as I can.

Elena: Man, I feel like I'm kind of talking to, like, a sage. You just have all this wisdom. I'm like, I don't even know where to start.

Stacey: Um, that's.

Elena: Okay.

What's been your favorite part of your career so far

Elena: Well, what's been your favorite part of your journey?

Stacey: Favorite part?

Elena: I know there's probably a couple of things throughout the course of being in the industry for so long, but for.

Stacey: So long, I think kind of I would say it's seeing the people, whether or not they've stayed in. Coffee or not, but kind of seeing the people that I've trained either as baristas or roasters or whatever, but having the opportunity to kind of see them succeed in whatever they're doing, that's kind of, for me, the greatest accomplishment. And just having the opportunity to still be in their lives. Um, again, for me, it's about connectivity, and it's about that. Um, but honestly, the biggest success is just seeing those people that you've trained and that you've made connections with succeed. Um, and again, having them, um, want to keep me in their life as well, you know, like, that is also, like, it's just so special. Like, being a part of that journey and being somebody that they can still reach out to and talk to. And it's like having I don't know, having that university professor that you just kind of really loved got along with, really got along with. Right. That, honestly, is the most special thing for me, particularly, um, I've had the opportunity, like I said, compete a lot. And coach, I would say coaching as well, um, has been a real reward. When somebody asks you for help or asks you to be their coach, I think having somebody trust you for that journey is also just, like, kind of one of the most humbling experiences you can have.

Elena: Yeah, I think those are it.

Don't be afraid to fail. I've failed in public a few times

Elena: Yeah. For people who are new to the industry, especially since you've jumped over so many different fields in it, what would your advice be for people who want to traverse more of the coffee.

Stacey: World? Like, to traverse more of the coffee world? I think be open to opportunity, I m think don't be afraid to try new things. Um, I find a lot of people and don't doubt.

Elena: Yourself.

Stacey: Don't be afraid to fail. I definitely failed a few times. I've failed in public a few times. I've failed in front of an audience a few times. I think that is one of the it's scary, to be honest. Getting up in front of a crowd and talking in public can be pretty scary. Uh, but I think that once you realize that nobody wants you to do badly, once you can kind of get past that fear, mhm it's really special. To be able to share your opinions with people who are like minded. Right. It's just so much fun. Um, I've had the opportunity to work with a few baristas and whatnot and I've definitely I mean, at one point I was helping a barista for barista competition and he just had such a hard time speaking in public and he ended up not being able to complete his set. It was one of those things he just couldn't do it. Um, he managed to serve his espresso and that was kind of it.

Elena: Oh my God.

Stacey: Yeah. But afterwards, one of the judges for his competition set is a good friend of mine and she was just like, please let him know his espresso was the best espresso I had drank all day. Wow. So it's just everybody wants you to succeed. And I think that's such yeah. Um, so just don't be afraid to fail.

Elena: I think that's a good piece of advice that kind of can apply to literally anything as an adult or literally getting into new hobbies or a new career or meeting new people. It can apply to so many different things.

From the beginning of the journey to now, you see a lot of things change

Elena: So from the beginning of the journey to now, you said that you had seen a lot of things change through that scope. What specific things did you see that really kind of changed? It could be literally, like on the actual coffee aspect. It can be on the more social.

Stacey: Aspect. Well, we no longer see portion packs of Orange Crush coffee. Um, um, like I said, when I first started out in coffee, I was probably 17 or 18. And I'm not going to lie, one of my favorite things we used to get, like my boss loved flavored coffee.

Elena: Mhm.

Stacey: And again, I was 17, so whatever, right. There were all these different flavors and I would literally open up one pack of this and I would mix it with this. Make your own concoction coffee. Right. It's just wild to think of that now. Right. But you know what? Back then it was super fun. And I'm sure it was garbage coffee. Well, it was garbage coffee, but it was just so, um fun. Right. It's really interesting to see kind of how that trend is really pretty much gone. Yeah. Um, that's interesting. It's also cool to see, other than in hotels, portion pack coffee is not really a thing anymore. We're trying to be more sustainable, which is really great. Yeah. Um, I think the movement of, um, specialty coffee too. We were serving coffee, but we didn't know where it was from. We didn't know who was producing it. We didn't know any of those things at that. Like, it was just like, oh, it's from, um, Columbia.

Elena: It seems like it was like the crossover from second wave to third wave that you were in that.

Stacey: Wave. Just like, I think kind of knowing the producer, knowing where coffee is from, realizing how much work goes into it. These were all things I had no idea when I was a teenager. I'm just like I don't know. It comes in this bag, and I open it up and I dump it in the filter and I press start. Yeah, there's that. I don't know. Making espresso and then making, like, an extra large dry cappuccino. Those were things there's just so many things that have changed, and it makes sometimes it makes me feel really old. Remember when yeah. Um, and I love that. We can now tell these stories about coffee. We know where it's from. We know what washing stations it's from. We know what producer is from. We know what farm it's from. We can go so far down the chain, um, to tell these stories and to tell the origin story of this coffee. Um, we can pay more. We're paying more for coffee. We're doing all these things. And I think also for the consumer side of things, when you can show all of these steps as to how it got there, it kind of justifies for the consumer as well. Okay. I understand why I'm spending this much money on coffee. Why isn't it a dollar 50 anymore?

Elena: Whatever. I think that, um, especially in rural parts, um, that old school way of drinking coffee still exists. So it's really interesting when you kind of come across that, um because I think that coffee, especially was more of the social aspect from what you were experiencing, too, that it kind of blocks off a lot of the people who grew up with that to the newer kind of generation of coffee right now, where there's, um, like a level or air of pretentiousness that's making coffee completely unapproachable for people.

Stacey: Um, 100%.

Elena: I was going to say you were a barista. You still are a barista. How did you navigate those conversations for the people that were really like, why do I have to spend that much money on coffee? Or, Why is a cappuccino not in an extra large anymore? I think a lot of this is also impacted from corporate coffee shops versus a lot of these specialty, smaller, uh, coffee shops that are trying to kind of go back to traditional espresso beverages. Um, so how did you traverse those conversations? Because I feel like I kind of find myself having a hard time trying to explain it, and they like I was, like, just, like, over their head.

Stacey: Yeah. I think, again, it totally depends on, obviously, what kind of shop you're working in, but, um, I did work in a coffee roastery for a while that had kind of, let's say, a wider range of customers coming through. And it's super hard, um, explaining those things and also trying to not have that. I don't ever want to have that level of pretentiousness. Yeah. There are times where I go into coffee shops now and I feel intimidated.

Elena: Yeah. It's overwhelming.

Stacey: I'm overwhelmed. I just want my flat white. That's all I want. But I think it's like, you don't need to tell them they're wrong. Mhm, that's the first episode. Nobody's wrong does exist. It just doesn't exist in this shop here. Um, and it's again, I think being kind, mhm, is super important. And it can get as a brewery, like, oh my god. I've said this 10 million times. Yeah, this person doesn't know. That, right? They don't know. You've answered this question a gazillion times and you hate it. This is what they love. So it's just like it's taking a deep breath and you're like, well, we don't have a 20 ounce latte, but I could give you.

Elena: 212. Just buy two.

Stacey: Drinks. I think it's just this is what I have and this is what I can give you.

Stacey loves Australian coffee culture. Australian coffee is like Disneyland for me

Stacey: Actually.

Elena: You brought up flat white. I'm guessing that's like one of your favorite of the espresso beverages. Yeah. So Australian coffee culture. I was going to say, how well do you know Australian coffee culture? Because I feel like I don't know.

Stacey: Australian coffee culture at oh, I love Australian coffee culture. Australian coffee is like Disneyland for me. I describe it. I'm like it's like Disneyland for anybody who likes.

Elena: Coffee.

the first time for coffee in: 2017

You had your first robust espresso experience in Italy

Elena: Um, have you experienced coffee cultures in other countries.

Stacey: Too? Yeah, um, I do make sure to visit as much as I can when I'm traveling. Different shops, different coffee. And I think one of the interesting things is being in Italy and kind of having my first robust espresso experience. That was wild.

Elena: Yeah, I was going to say, how was that?

Stacey: Was it good?

Elena: No, I was going to say a robust.

Stacey: Espresso. It's wild, actually. We decaffeinate Robusto mhm, which to me is, like, mind blowing. And I hadn't had a robusta period until I started working at Swiss Water mhm. I didn't even know what I was drinking. I was like, Is this what it's supposed to taste like? Is this supposed to taste like leather and cedar? Yeah, it's woodsy for a lot of very woodsy. Right. Um, it's just, like, such and it's so strong. And I had no idea. I'm like, Is this good? Is this bad?

Elena: I think I've only had really one good experience with a Robusta coffee that made me like, wow, I could drink this. And I don't know, it was like, from somebody at the, um, retreat last year who was from Thailand and brought Robusta beans with them that they roasted. And I was like, wow, this is delicious. And ever since then, I'm like, I don't really think I've found that same experience since drinking that coffee.

Stacey: Yeah. I mean, I know that there's specialty robusta. I just haven't had the opportunity to try it yet. And I am open for it 100%, but I just have not had that opportunity yet. Ah, drinking that espresso is probably one of the most wild. Literally just so intense. Were you wired? I was wired. I was intense. And then I'm also one of those people who like, I can't be rude. I am like, your stereotypical Canadian. I'm like, uh, that's nice with the face. Yeah, exactly. Thankfully, it's small and you can just kind of, like, shoot it back. But I did. I drank the whole thing.

Elena: Obviously, a lot has changed, a lot has been experienced. And I know that we talked about it before about the diversity growing within a lot of the production industry. What do you think still needs work? What would you be like if I had a magic wand?

M. Said wants to see more diversity in coffee industry

Elena: I want to pick on this first, and I want to focus on this next.

Stacey: I want to see more diversity throughout. I think I've literally stood on my soapbox since, like, I don't know, let's say.

Elena:: 1998

Stacey: I was like, okay, when did I start in coffee? It would have been 1998. Um, and it's just I want to see it in every like, I think I've been saying the same thing since I was, like, 17 is. I just I want to see everybody doing everything. We need more diversity in management. We need more diversity in the roastery. We need more diversity on the floor. We need more everywhere. And at that time, it was like, we need more women. And now it's like, we need more people of color. We need more people. The LGBTQ community, we need to make space. And that's the other thing, is that we can say, oh, we're going to hire this, and we're open to hire whatever. But it's also about creating the space, the space that is comfortable, the space that is welcoming. I think that's really underrated, and that's it. I hear this a lot. They just don't apply. That is not the right answer, right? It is thinking, why are people not applying? Why are we not the right place? And I don't think enough people ask that question. Yeah. How can we create the space to welcome all people?

Elena: Mhm.

Stacey: Um, and I think as an industry as a whole, we really need to work better on creating that space.

Elena: I think for me, personally, um, as a lone wolf in the Midwest, as a woman and person of color roasting, it's really bleak here. Um, and what we struggle with is opportunity. So I think, personally, it's really hard to find both of those things, like, a safe space for people to feel the inclusion, to feel like they are not just a diversity quota. A lot of people will push those where it's like, well, you fit one of those categories, so we'll let you in so that we don't look like we're predominantly only hiring a specific demographic. But I think what's really hard working in specifically also specialty coffee and specifically in more less dense populated cities, is finding opportunity and being able to apply to that. So there's, like, both of those two, I think, coexist as a huge underlying issue that exists in the coffee world.

Stacey: 100%. 100%. And it's also hard when you look up for mentorship, right. M. And you don't see you can look up, and you can look in that room, and nobody looks like you. And that is intimidating. It's super intimidating.

Elena: What's really interesting, too, is when I've seen that kind of room where there is that you get to see a lot of these people and a lot of the people that have been working in the industry for a really long time. And I remember looking at that, and I was like, there are no Arab people here. And I was like, everybody else can somehow find their people in this industry. And I just feel like there's absolutely no Arabic representation in this. And coffee is a huge part of our culture. Yeah, it's a huge social aspect. There's just so much that goes into the arabic world and how much we've really kind of created almost social boundaries through just is. I was really upset, and I am still upset when I try and find more people. Even in base in America, who I'm like, where can I find more Arab people to be able to bring onto this platform, be able to have a voice just like everyone else who has come on the show? Um and very diverse crowds that I'm glad that you can be a part of and other people that have been able to be a part of. But it's like, one of the things that I wish that I had more of, like a search engine or a way for me to figure out is where is the representation for the Arabic community in the production industry also, or even as a barista, I don't even know. Just altogether, I agree with everything you.

Stacey: Said. Yeah. And I think also just being on this platform right, is great. And hopefully, I don't know, somebody is listening when this comes out and they're like, hey, that's me. Right? And I think that's one of the kind of best feelings is when you realize that if it's listening to a podcast like this, and you're like, whoa, hey, that's me they're talking about, uh, I'm not alone, right? There's somebody else out there. And she feels like she's the only person. Like, that it's like, no. And that's that kind of special connectivity, right?

Outside of just the diversity needing to be a better and more developed part of this industry

Elena: Outside of just the diversity needing to be a better and more developed part of this industry, is there anything else that you would be like, well, I'm still not satisfied with.

Stacey: This. We need to pay more for coffee, um, in general, but again, that is such a huge thing. It's so hard, again, on how do we educate consumers without being pretentious mhm, um, that we need to pay more for coffee. Um, and if we can pay this much for a bottle of wine, why can't we pay this much for a bag of coffee?

Elena: Yeah, that's a really good one. It's a really good comparison because I've dropped money on just one bottle of wine that's gone in a.

Stacey: Day. You don't want that to oxidize you don't want that to go bad. So yeah, you're literally drinking it in like, one day, but you're willing to do that or you're willing to spend however much on dinner one night. We have these luxuries, we have these things that we are totally happy to spend money on. I think paying more for coffee, um, it's a huge thing. Yeah. But I think it's also super important to kind of not be the pretentious kind of coffee professional and be like, oh, well, do you know? And it's like, no, you don't need to go in and be like, did you know how long? But just like, being able to tell that story right? And then people are like, I get it. Okay.

Elena: Yeah.

Stacey: It's a lot of work.

Elena: Yeah. I think, uh, you need this well rounded customer service aspect to be able to implement heavy, informative information to almost like, spoon feed it in a way where it's not condescending or patronizing.

Stacey: Yes, exactly.

So I have a podcast called Hot Takes. So essentially, um, it gives you a hot take

Elena: So I have a thing on my podcast called Hot Takes. So essentially, um, it gives you an opportunity to list one or many other hot takes you have on the industry. Whether it's controversial or not is besides the point. It's kind of the point of this whole show. So do you have a hot take?

Stacey: I feel like I've said some stuff throughout this interview as to how I feel.

Elena: We did talk about a lot of things with that turnaround of the same kind of topic in general.

Stacey: Yeah. I feel like I threw some hot takes into the conversation already.

Elena: I appreciate you being on the show. It was great chatting with you. You're such a nice and humble, just pretty spirit of a person. You're just very soft. The energy was very soft, and I loved it.

Stacey: Oh, good. I'm glad. Well, yeah, I mean, thank you for having me on. It was fun.

Elena: Yeah. Have a great rest of your night.

Stacey: I will.

Elena: You too.

Stacey: Okay, bye.

Elena: Bye.

The episode focuses on diversity in coffee and how it can improve

Elena: I think my favorite, uh, thing that she threw on was literally towards the end of the episode, where she's like, if you're willing to spend, um, a lot of money on a bottle of wine that probably won't last, more than one or two days, there really shouldn't be that much of a complaint to buy a bag of coffee that's going to go to a cause that you have a connection with now. Because usually half the time, if you're buying from a smaller roastery or a, uh, smaller company like that, they'll give you more information on the coffee that makes you feel like you're actually contributing to something larger than yourself. I also thought the connection to her kind of like being along the wave of that second to third wave of coffee, it brings a whole new level of a lens that we kind of are lacking in terms of at least a community aspect. Um, because now that she's done a lot of competitions, she's worked as a roaster, she's now working in QC. She's still competing. It's like she's still participating in a lot of this new wave stuff, because competing was something that was really daunting for her and still finding fondness from the ability to just kind of know the people more than the actual coffee. So I think her bringing up her point of diversity, I thought that story of her having one friend and the other friend both being in the same m only thinking they were the ones that existed, versus now she's like, yeah, I see a lot of diversity, but it could still improve. That goes to show that, yeah, there's a lot more that's growing now, but we shouldn't just be complacent with where it is. If somebody who's OG says it still needs to grow, and that says a lot. She really kind of touched on some really good focal points. It's on a more broad scale that can just kind of like umbrella or spider web, as she said, down into different categories. And I think this has been a reoccurring issue that needs to be constantly brought to awareness of some change. To happen is to diversify. We need more diversity in not just the quota aspect, but on a genuine level. And I liked that she brought up. The best way to go about it is to really look inwards on what you're creating as a company, what you're creating as a work, culture and environment, what you're able to provide in terms of opportunity. I think overall, that's a really good way to end the episode.